When it comes to generating organic website traffic, nothing beats a good SEO strategy.
And when we say more traffic, it also means more money for the business!
For today’s podcast episode, I had a chat with Nicholas Jordan who will reveal how he strategically grew a site’s traffic to 1.5M hits per month!
Nicholas has grown 4 projects from 0 to 100,000+ organics/month. The largest grew from 0 to 1,5000,000 organics/month without building backlinks or technical BS. This project helped his client go from seed stage to a $210m series B valuation led by A16 and grew his agency from 1 to 45 writers and editors in a two-year period.
Nicholas and I have addressed several topics such as Nicholas’ SEO strategy to grow a site to 1.5M organics per month. How much content they were creating per month to get to that point? How they structured that content (what it looked like) to be able to actually rank and get traffic without ANY paid link building?
We also talked about hiring the best writers and its process. What do you need in place before hiring people?
Finally, Nicholas shared the training process and how to promote the writers to editors and teach the new writers.
Check out this episode if you want to discover the amazing SEO strategies that can drive more traffic to your site!
Get this podcast on your preferred platform:
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02:55 Nicholas’s experience in the online business space
09:44 How he Got to 1.5M organic hits per month
10:05 The SEO strategy he uses for generating more website traffic
13:18 Scaling a site by nailing the Quality of the content
17:12 What is Workello’s mission?
20:38 How to hire the best writers?
28:49 Nicholas’s important tips for hiring the best talents!
31:23 Where can you find Nicholas?
Courses & Training
Courses & Training
➥ Nicholas did an SEO analysis and found out that on average, a web page gets 50-100 visitors per month so he got a hint that publishing a lot of content could create a good outcome.
➥ When hiring writers, it’s best to have a written Standard Operating Procedure and company policies and look for people who care about your business.
➥ You can’t scale your online business until you nail the quality of your content.
About The Guest
Nicholas Jordan has grown 4 projects from 0 to 100,000+ organics/month. The largest grew from 0 to 1,5000,000 organics/month without building backlinks or technical BS. This project helped his client go from seed stage to a $210m series B valuation led by A16 and grew his agency from 1 to 45 writers and editors in a two-year period.
Connect with Nicholas Jordan
How much content do you need to publish per month to get to 1.5 million organic hits from Google?
Hi, I'm Jaryd Krause, host of the buying online businesses podcast. And today, I'm speaking with Nicholas Jordan who has grown four projects from zero to 100,000 organic hits per month and the largest he was able to grow from zero to 1.5 million organic hits per month without building any backlinks or any tech SEO.
This project was a massive home run. It helped his client go from seed stage two up to a $10 million Series B valuation led by a 16 and grew his agency from one to 45 writers and editors in just a two year period.
Now in this podcast episode, Nick and I specifically talk about his SEO strategy that he used to grow this site to 1.5 million organic hits per month, we're talking about how much content they're actually creating per month to be able to get to that we talked about how they structured the content.
So what it looked like in compared to their competitors, how it had to have more of certain things, which you'll find out about in the podcast episodes, you'll actually be able to have those pieces of content, rank and get traffic without any of that paid backlink building or, or technical SEO within deep within the site. We'll talk about hiring. Nick is very big on hiring. So we talk about how to hire the best writers, and how it can be a numbers game, what sort of funnels and systems and things you need to have put in place before you start hiring.
And we also talk about how to train and promote your writers to editors, and then help your writers and editors scale as you scale. To help all of that team. Underneath you. Train your new writers and new editors as you build a bigger team for your blog. This is such a valuable episode guys, you're absolutely going to love it. Also note that this podcast is not the only way that I can help you for free. I have my due diligence framework. I have a bunch of other free resources you can get on buyingonlinebusinesses.com/freeresources.
Now let's have a chat with Nick.
Nicholas Jordan (2:56)
Hey, I've been looking forward to all week.
Jaryd Krause (2:58)
Yeah, me too. Me too. So I wanted to ask you first and foremost, you mentioned you had but we didn't really dig into it before we hit the record buttons. Have you bought and sold sites and what you know how many of you bought him and he was sold? What is what does that look like?
Nicholas Jordan (3:14)
Yeah, so I've had two micro exits. The first one was for $1,000. I built an e-commerce store selling knives to europeans, which I think technically makes me an international arms dealer. And then I sold a second site that I built called doggy pedia.org. I grew it to 100,000 Organics a month. I couldn't monetize it. And I sold it to this DDC brand called Alphapa who could monetize it. And I sold that for 30,000.
Jaryd Krause (3:40)
Okay, cool. And so was that a content site? The second one?
Nicholas Jordan (3:43)
Yeah, it was a content site, doggy.pedia.org.
Jaryd Krause (3:46)
And what was your motivation for buying versus starting?
Nicholas Jordan (3:51)
Yeah, so it was, you know, I think what attracts me to entrepreneurship is the unlimited surface area for learning. And so I just spent my entire career as a sales guy. I learned SEO by moving to an SEO company and taking like a 90% pay cut to sell SEO because I knew how to learn it.
And then once I figured out I think I know it, I left and doggy pedia was me proving to myself that I didn't know what I was doing. And so it went from zero to 100,000 Organics a month in about 13 months. So you bought it you would have bought it with very little traffic then zero traffic.
I saw a cool domain name. I wanted to do a big project with lots of content and lots of traffic. And it was a tossup between scarves, knives and puppies. And ultimately, I went with puppies because I could tell girls on tinder I'm a puppy influencer.
Jaryd Krause (4:43)
So did you buy this as an age domain or you buy it as a fresh brand new domain.
Nicholas Jordan (4:48)
Completely fresh. I didn't build backlinks, I focused. The entire strategy was focused on creating more valuable content than Google could show for any of the keywords I wanted to rank for. That was the second part I took to 100,000 Organics a month. And then I would go on to take a project to 1.5 million organics a month using the same strategy.
Jaryd Krause (5:08)
Okay. Yeah. Cool. So, so what? So the first site you bought, where did you buy that from? And how much did you spend on it?
Nicholas Jordan (5:16)
Yeah, so I actually built the first website really well. And I ended up selling it for $1,000. It's the one I mentioned, where I was selling knives to Europeans. The problem is, is that like 30 to 40% of the knives would get confiscated at customs. And so the more knives I sold, the more money I lost. And so it wasn't a very good business.
Jaryd Krause (5:40)
So you started both of those?
Nicholas Jordan (5:44)
Yeah, those are the two I've sold. I've started a lot of other businesses that, you know, were mostly unsuccessful in the early in the beginning and doing a little bit better on the back end of my career.
Jaryd Krause (5:54)
Yeah, it's interesting, because a lot of people come to buy a website and they go, it's really hard to find them. And they're not very patient, they have this lofty expectation that they're going to be a gazillionaire in like, you know, six months’ time. And then they rush off and go, I could just build this myself.
And I think well, I mean, you could but do you have like all the years of SEO experience that you had, Nick, before you even started? And some of them for you, as an SEO with all that years of experience in the career still flopped?
Nicholas Jordan (6:28)
It was so hard for me to monetize, I couldn't figure it out.
Jaryd Krause (6:33)
So what do you mean by that, so you started getting traffic, but you didn't know how to monetize? Is that right?
Nicholas Jordan (6:38)
Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, this was about I don't know, four years ago at this point. And I hadn't seen a lot of monetization opportunities. And I hadn't had a lot of chances to take shots at Target. And, this first shot did not, did not go well. I think we were making negative $75 a month after our hosting costs.
And so actually, actually, it's kind of a good story. I posted something like, Hey, I haven't made any money on this website. But here's all the things I learned. I grew Pinterest to 40 million impressions. I got like a million, you know, through Google organic, I got a lot of traffic. And, I made a lot of friends on the way and Sam Parr from my first million thought he tagged his friend Ramon, and his friend ended up buying it from me.
Jaryd Krause (7:21)
And so that's, that's really good that you sold it. You didn't have to put it on a marketplace. She didn't have to stick around with like, so many people doing due diligence, just knew somebody that had money he was ready to buy, right. So it sounds like a pretty good selling experience.
Nicholas Jordan (7:34)
Well, first, you know, he said he'll buy it. And then he came in for $6,000. And I said, well, it's got to be worth way more than $6,000. And so I put it up on Flipper. And I did a bunch of hustling and Facebook groups, and I got a bidding war going. And that got it up to 30,000.
People told me I could have gotten more, but the guy I sold it to I'm still friends with today. He's a customer of mine for my neck, SAS. And I slept in his pool house for two weeks while we were doing the transaction. It’s a good story.
Jaryd Krause (8:07)
That's really cool. Because how cool would it be if somebody is a buyer site and they hung out with the previous owner for two weeks, like that's invaluable? Really.
Nicholas Jordan (8:19)
For me to hang out with someone that several rungs above the ladder, he had previously built the largest soap opera website on the internet and sold that and then he took this brand called Alpha pa bought it actually you should interview him next he bought Alpha pa this dog rent business is doing 700k a year in revenue. And he grew to 35 million a year in revenue in like two years. I don't know the numbers are like, they're in that ballpark.
Jaryd Krause (8:41)
Yeah. Cool. So this is a dog business was it?
Nicholas Jordan (8:43)
Yeah, And so my website was one of the several acquisitions that he did in building kind of this $35 million a year run rate business.
Jaryd Krause (8:52)
Yeah. Cool. And so did he buy that as a growth by acquisition sort of strategy, buying a smaller dog site and merging it into that larger one? Was that a play for him?
Nicholas Jordan (9:05)
Yeah, I just, you know, it made sense. He had products that make a lot of money and I had traffic that and no products to sell them. And so I think the website was better off under their brand and it allowed me you know, I got I checked off the dog influencer for Tinder. And I moved on to my next project.
Jaryd Krause (9:28)
Yeah, awesome. How did you go on Tinder? We don't need to answer that. I'm just.
Nicholas Jordan (9:37)
I think I think there's Yeah, we'll leave it at that.
Jaryd Krause (9:40)
You took a site or a business from zero traffic to 1.5 million hits per month organic. Is that right?
Nicholas Jordan (9:46)
Yep, that's right. I did it in two years. It wasn't a vanity traffic like it was on doggy pedia I learned my lesson and the traffic was so valuable. The company we did it for was able to go from a seed stage to a 200 A $10 million valuation from Andreessen Horowitz like the number one VC in that two year timeframe.
Jaryd Krause (10:05)
So just want to highlight something before we move on to this SEO show the people thinking 1.5 million organic hits per month, what do I need to do as a blogger to get that out there, one thing that you mentioned is you're creating 600 to 800 pieces of content a month, guys, we need to be realistic with our expectations, you might have the goal of hitting 1.5 million or getting hits per month, but you may not be at the level where you have the time and the resources to do that right now, was massive amounts of content a big part of the SEO strategy? And if so, what came before that, like, how did you work out what content you were going to create?
Nicholas Jordan (10:42)
Oh, yeah, so it's, um, you know, John Mueller, Google's kind of head of search PR, recently said, it's hard to call a 30 page website authoritative. Now, in 2022. Literally, anyone can create a 30 page website, anyone can create a 30 page website. And so when you create a 30 page website, if Google were to rank your pages, then Google would probably have to rank the pages of every 30 page website and two things would happen.
The first is, Google's users would, start getting scammed. Because anyone who throws up a 30 page website is now ranking for high commercial keywords. The second is, as soon as you know, the next day, you're going to get bumped off, because again, there's no barrier to creating this 30 pages. And so someone's going to do it tomorrow, and they're going to push you off the first page, there be too much variability.
And so when you publish a lot of content, you know, content is expensive. And what it tells Google is, hey, there's a business model, that customers will pay me for behind this content. And in order to get customers to pay you there has to be some sort of customer satisfaction. And so I see a big content investment is kind of you throwing money on the table saying, Hey, I'm an expert in this field.
Jaryd Krause (11:49)
And so how did you work out? What sort of how many how do you work out how many pieces of content you needed to get to you Did you set a goal first, and then you work out how many pieces of content you needed, and then you do go, Alright, how much what are the key words?
Nicholas Jordan (12:03)
One of the things you know, one of the things I noticed when I was doing an analysis of the some of the biggest SEO outcomes across the industry things like Zippier to Hub Spot, but within verticals like, for example, the dog vertical and the major players within there. And what I found is that a company like Hub Spot, they have I think, approximately 12,000 pages and generate, I don't know 10 million visitors a month.
When I did the math, Hub Spot is only generating 50 visitors per page per month. And that trend generally holds true regardless of what website you're looking at. Regardless, think about it. On average, each page is less than 100 visitors a month. And so that's where I kind of got the hint that publishing a lot of content could create a good outcome. You don't have to publish 600 pages a month, like me, I've published 70 pages total.
And that content went on to generate a million organic views over the course of two years, the traffic went up to 50,000 a month, it flat lined, and it hasn't really moved in the last two years. And so you don't need to publish 600 pages a month. But you can publish 10 pages a month, you can publish 20 pages a month, you can publish 40 pages a month, that's attainable. And you'll see a really business changing impact if you can do that.
Jaryd Krause (13:18)
And so what's your take on the quality versus quantity? It sounds like you've gone for quantity? Did you sacrifice some quality? Like what's your take on this?
Nicholas Jordan (13:29)
Yeah, I'm really glad you asked that you can't scale until you nail the quality i The everything that I've seen, I've over 250,000 keywords on page one across my projects. I've never built a paid back like and everything that I've seen across my career tells me that when you strive to publish the highest quality page of content that Google could show for the keywords that you want to rank for in any do that at scale, that's really all there is to this, you know, winning SEO like, I'm not kidding about no technical BS and no backlinks. Like it's all about quality and quantity.
Jaryd Krause (14:01)
Yeah. Okay. So you obviously work out the quality first, make sure you can see that that type of content is ranking, and then you replicate it for all the other search terms and keywords that you're wanting to rank for.
Nicholas Jordan (14:14)
I talked to a lot of businesses who aren't so familiar with SEO, and they're like, I want to rank for a keyword, I want to rank for a few keywords, I want to rank for a handful of keywords. And in actuality, there's not only a handful of keywords, there's hundreds of pages, maybe 1000s of pages that can get you in front of a qualified audience who has money and is like an and so it's not about you know, creating the perfect landing page.
It’s how do you create a landing page for all the different ways people are searching for the features of your product? You know, think about a really good example of this is like Canva or a video editing product. You know, they're like the average video editing products people will use it for one of 100 features translations, resizing, like intros, outros. Each one of that could be page that can capture user intent who needs a video editor and you just want to show them that one feature and how you can help them.
Jaryd Krause (15:06)
Love it. So with these pieces of content, you mentioned, obviously didn't buy any backlinks haven't paid and paid for any backlinks. And they gain obviously natural links, what are some of the things other things that you may have done within each piece of content? Did you know, h1 to h2 is internal links, is there some things that each piece of content had to have? That was like a necessity.
Nicholas Jordan (15:30)
h1, h2, tables, lists, bullet points, images, internal links, External links, when I'm competing from a place of weakness, I want to beat my competition on every single one of us. And so when I google that the first thing I'll do is Google the keyword I want to rank for. And then I'll open up the top three to five results. And how many words do they have? How many h2 they have? How many pictures do they have internal links, External links tables, I want to beat them on every one of those things.
Because what I found is that as long as the quality is good, one of the easiest ways to get better user engagement metrics is to create more of it. So if your competitor wrote 1000 words, right, 1500 words, because all things being equal, the user will stay longer than on your competitor site. And Google already said.
Jaryd Krause (16:18)
Well, obviously, you know, some people are thinking, right, just get as much content out there as possible, but they are going to listen to this. And I am certain that a portion of people will go content, like just like less get as much content out there as possibly can in under quantity.
And they missed the first step of like, hang on a second, let's get back to our competitive research. What's the search term that we're going for more of our competitors doing? And how can we do it better? What you mentioned is how can we do more of what they're doing?
Nicholas Jordan (16:49)
Yeah, the people, the people who just hear quantity are going to lose, it's possible. And I'm not kidding. Here, it's possible to spend an infinite amount of money on content that doesn't rank or generate any business value. I I've seen companies spend infinite amounts of dollars on content that no one will ever read. And so it has to be good, or you shouldn't scale.
Jaryd Krause (17:11)
So I love it, you're obviously going to need a lot of writers to write this content, where like, I want to ask them about work. Hello, what was your motivation behind that? Was that to just have access to a lot of writers? Or yeah, what was your motivation behind that?
Nicholas Jordan (17:26)
So I'm a SAS guy. And earlier in the conversation, I said, I was a sap like a sales guy, my whole life for early stage Sass Company, I was employee number eight, at a company that grew to 200 people I was doing a lot of fun stuff. And that's kind of my background, this whole SEO Services thing is kind of like a pit stop.
I looked at my career, and I said, hey, marketing will serve my skill set better. My goal is better than a sales guy. So I got to learn marketing. But ultimately, it was to build a Sass product.
So I'm actually six years into my five year plan, where I quit my sales job to learn SEO, to use the launch of Sass product. And so what was the question?
Jaryd Krause (18:02)
The question is, what was your motivation around why you started work? Nicholas Jordan (18:05)
So this client that is publishing 600 pages a month, they would take all the capacity that could bring online and so the biggest bottleneck for my agency business growth was how many writers could I hire? And so I ended up spending about 1000 to 2000 hours figuring out how to build a perfect system for hiring good, affordable writers very easily.
And I think, you know, if you look at the, if you look at the industry, I probably spent more time thinking about how to hire writers than anyone, because of this experience and their unlimited budget and our crazy success. And so, I also started realizing our community also had the same problems, everybody struggles, hiring writers, writers submit portfolio content that is heavily edited by someone else that doesn't reflect the content that they'll submit to you.
Writings, the lowest barrier work from home job, which means all of your candidate, most of your candidates are going to be aspirational. They work at a grocery store, they work, they dig ditches, and they say, Hey, I want to work from home. I speak English kind of, I should apply for writing roles. And, and so it ends up being very difficult to hire good writers consistently, and I cracked the code. And so going back to my SAS roots, I built a product. I've watched the community, and the community has evaluated more than 15,000 writing candidates in the last couple of months.
Jaryd Krause (19:28)
So people can use this to find quality writers based on how they've been audited and their skills and stuff like that. Is that right?
Nicholas Jordan (19:37)
Yeah. So it's a pre hire assessment platform. And essentially, candidates come in, and you set a writing test to the best candidates, and they'll go ahead and they'll complete that writing test for you. And so when you're making a hiring decision, it's not based off of education resume, or portfolio that's probably fake.
It's based off of the writing test they just took that's only for you. And so you know, it wasn't plagiarized.
Jaryd Krause (20:00)
Yeah, it's interesting when you go on up work or Fiverr, or anything like that, you've got people that can talk to talk. And then you ask them to do the task. And you're like, well, this is really down, right? Yeah. How do they have five stars? Yeah, exactly. They paid for those stars probably. What does you know somebody does want to hire right?
People listen to this, all content writers, content creators, and they're going to want to have most people here listening will have blogs or want to buy a blog, or create some level of content for their business, whether it's a blog or not watching people be thinking about before they even decide to hire a writer.
Nicholas Jordan (20:42)
So there's two things that I say to make it work. The first is you need documentation. So what I found is I can't hold anyone accountable to anything that I haven't written down, especially when it comes to content writing, because in content writing, every word is a liability to mess something up. Spelling, grammar, positioning, messaging, formatting, you give to people the same topic, and you're going to get completely different content, there's too much variability in the way that people are going to deliver what you're looking for.
And so if you want it done in a particular way, it has to be documented because it doesn't work unless it's documented. The second thing you need to do is you need to find people who care. Going back to every word and content writing a bit being a liability, how do you publish hundreds of 1000s of liabilities per month without making mistakes, the people need to care? Generally, what we advise for people who are starting a new blog is, you know, hire five writers.
Give them a couple articles a month, and then in two months, you're probably only going to have one or two writers left, because you fired the rest of them for being flaky for not meeting timelines for not learning. When you gave them feedback, they kept on making the same mistake. You know, they cheated on the test.
Jaryd Krause (21:51)
Yeah, they don't care. As well.
Nicholas Jordan (21:54)
They don't care. They stopped caring.
Jaryd Krause (21:55)
Yeah, stop caring. Yeah. So what about so you talked about documenting doc, having documentation of how the works done, basically, this is a SOP, right? Standard Operating Procedure. This is what we have in place before we even decide to hire, we know, a results that we want to achieve. And we know what that looks like.
And then we reverse engineer that result on what it looks like. And then we reverse engineer how it's actually done. Have it documented, and it can be done through, you know, Google Sheets, Google Docs, and video and stuff like that. Is that what you mean by having documentation, having a good SOP for somebody who has no idea how to write a piece of content to creating to be able to create something that gets a result?
Nicholas Jordan (22:41)
Yeah, absolutely. And it doesn't just extend to like implementation, it goes all the way to like, what's our PTO, and maternity leave policy? And like, you know, how do you how do you request? How do you like, how do you basically anything in the organization that needs to get done more than once, is documented. So it's done consistently. And repeatedly, you know, every time.
Jaryd Krause (23:00)
I like to have the document, like have the SOP, but also like have a sop for test work. So what we like to do is we like to find, say, 10, people put them through the funnel of the tests, see who comes out the, you know, at the bottom of the test, and then two or three people put those two to three people through our you know, we'll hire them to do you know, a task two or three tasks, put them through the our own company's SOP, and then whoever gets their best result we stick with, and if it changes, that result changes over a couple of months’ time, then we go back to the same process again, or test out the other two that made it through the first test.
Is that, you know, where, you know, what, should we be doing better? Or is there things that we can do to add on to that? Or do differently based on what you've experienced?
Nicholas Jordan (23:50)
Yeah, great question. So your overall strategy is very solid. It's funny how frequently this this occurs. But what I found the number one lever for hiring better writers is evaluate and test more candidates. If you evaluate and test two or three candidates, you're not going to hire the best you're going to hire the least worst.
Don't Yeah, if you only evaluate a couple candidates, you're going to hire the least worst, you're going to spend too much time editing and you're going to terminate them or they're going to quit. Test 10 candidates that's good. We test 50 or 100 candidates a lot, right?
Because the more surface area you give yourself, the more likelihood you have to find and discover that hidden talent, just like the number one lever to get better SEO results has published more content. The number one way to get more outbound sales results is do more outbound. You know the number one way to hire better writers is evaluate and test more writers.
Jaryd Krause (24:43)
Cool. You just dropped out there. But I'm pretty sure I know the rest of the answer. But I wanted to add to this as well because people are sitting here and listening to this podcast and going wow test 150 to 100 candidates. That's a lot of time on my hands.
We'll know not actually, if you have a good test SOP that they can run through, you can put 1000 people through it and then still work out, you know, who's the top 20 or top 10? Without it costing you any more time, right? So I think people that are seeing so many steps here that have very vital.
Nicholas Jordan (25:21) That's exactly right. That's exactly why we built work yellow to enable companies to actually reach that amount of tests that they need to find those candidates who are good, affordable, and are going to stick with them for a long time.
Jaryd Krause (25:34)
And so with writers, are you hiring just writers and then just editors? So you have, so that piece of content will touch by multiple people along the process? What does that process look like from creation to published?
Nicholas Jordan (25:47)
Yeah, absolutely. So for anyone listening this podcast, you're going to be like me, you're a business owner and content and SEO is a channel that you're using to exploit. We don't actually care about the words too much that are getting written. And so the first thing that like, as soon as possible, take yourself out of the editing process, you're going to do it initially.
But your company is going to be better off if you can stop worrying about the words on the paper, and you can focus on revenue generating activities. My business didn't take off until I hired an editor, we ended up scaling with me to editor, content manager, project manager, director operations. And now my co-founder helping me build workout and helping, you know, other content teams hire better writers Slave going back to caring is the one thing that you can evaluate in an interview cycle, over two or three touch points with an editor, the easiest thing for an editor to do is let things slide, you won't know how much they care until they start.
And so all of our editors start off as writers, because you can't fake caring for two to three to four to five to six months that you're going to be a writer before getting promoted. And at this point, we've promoted probably over 10, writers, to editors, PMS, and other senior roles within our organization.
Jaryd Krause (27:02)
Love it. So you basically start off with the writer, and it yourself at the start, because you don't have an editor if you're just a newbie to this. And then after, you know, X amount of data points and articles written and you understand that the writer cares, you can promote them to edit our input other people do another test of candidates for the for the writing of it.
Nicholas Jordan (27:25)
That's exactly right. I just tweak it.
Jaryd Krause (27:28)
And then you have the just tweak it up person who is the editor actually help and support and teach the previous writer right. That's the real goal, because then you can step away from it. Without having to do.
Nicholas Jordan (27:42)
That’s exactly right.
Jaryd Krause (27:42)
For the first for the writer again.
Nicholas Jordan (27:44)
That’s exactly right. The only thing I tweak is don't work with one writer. Because if that writer is not good, now you don't have an editing candidate. Just like the more writers you test, the better writers you'll hire, the more writers you hire, the better editors, you'll promote. Yeah, it's all like a pipeline problem. It is. It's all systems and pipelines.
Jaryd Krause (28:04)
It's just a numbers game, right?
Nicholas Jordan (28:05)
It's just a numbers game. And so when you promote this person to editor now allows you to focus on like, you know, level up and kind of focus on higher level at the business. But you don't want that person to stop there. Because editing is just where you want them to begin, you also want them to take over hiring because you don't like that either.
You want them to take over all the SEO stuff you don't want to do you just give them a doc and they have to follow it and do SEO. And so there's kind of this dance where I hired this editor. And then as she took stuff off my plate, I could level up. And then I gave her the next batch of stuff I didn't want to do and then she leveled up. And then she would backfill the position behind her. And if they get stuck at editor, you still need someone to become your content manager and take over all content production.
Jaryd Krause (28:46)
Absolutely love it. What are your top two or three tips for somebody that's looking at hiring and has no idea other than what we've already talked about?
Nicholas Jordan (28:46)
You know, early on in my career, I had to make a decision on whether to underpay Americans or overpay foreigners. And I decided that you know, I wasn't sure about this whole American exceptionalism thing. I'm not sure it exists. And I decided to hire a bunch of foreigners. And ultimately, I think it was the right move to overpay. You know, people that don't live in the US and rather than hire people in the US it kind of changed my life.
I ended up moving to Europe to support the team and build it. And I've been in Europe for three years and even though my life is so boring, it's all happening in a foreign country and that makes it kind of exciting.
Jaryd Krause (29:38)
Cool, cool. So overpaying. Overpaying foreigners to get you the results.
Nicholas Jordan (29:45)
Yeah, absolutely. You know, people ask a kid non-native english speakers speak english. And my response is always the Department of Education says that 54% of Americans have an eighth grade reading level or less. Most Americans can't speak english very good. And my team would chime in and say, Nick, it's well, because they spent, they got their master's degree studying all the grammar rules that we forgot in seventh grade.
Jaryd Krause (30:12)
Yeah, or some people didn't even get.
Nicholas Jordan (30:16)
Yeah, so there's 10s of millions of non-native English speakers that speak better english than Americans. And if you feel like you're not able to hire a broad very well, I would say, I would go back to the number of candidates you're putting in your pipeline, and that you're evaluating is probably the problem.
Jaryd Krause (30:33)
And you can test it as well, right, you can have a candidate for you can have a funnel for native english speaking and non-native english speaking, and then test them against each other and sort of, it's all the tests, you can see which works best for you.
Nicholas Jordan (30:46)
That's right. But in COVID times, where you're not applying for jobs, 25, you know, within 25 miles, you're applying for any job, you know, all those grocery store, people really want to work from home, and they're applying for your writing job. And so, you know, I think regardless of where you're hiring from, or how much you're willing to pay, you're going to have low value candidates crowding out any type of job you post. And really the trick is, if 5% of my candidates are qualified and talented, how do I filter out the 95%? So I'm only left with the 5%. And do it in an efficient fast way.
Jaryd Krause (31:19)
Absolutely. Love it. Nick, thanks so much for coming on. Where can we send people to check out more about what you're doing, and work our low and everywhere else.
Nicholas Jordan (31:28)
So we just dropped a 7000 page guide on how to publish 100 pages a month, you can find it on workello.com, you can also check out our YouTube channel contentdistribution.com because we have a video version, and then you can go to facebook.com/contentdistribution search for Fat Graph Content that's on Facebook. And we run the largest content ops community out here.
Jaryd Krause (31:51)
So we'll be putting those in the show notes. So thanks so much. Yeah, really appreciate you coming on and sharing everything that you've learned in your career and congrats on like, from going from sales to SEO to building these other businesses. I think it's really cool on you thinking about the long term. I like playing long term games with long term people. And those people that win and have a lot more fun and do it with less stress.
Nicholas Jordan (32:18)
Thank you, I'll leave you with one thing that served me well, when I was 19. I told myself whether I get rich or not on my first startup, I'm going to meet the people and do the things or meet the people and learn the skills to do something even bigger next, and I've basically just been following that for the last 15 years and working at higher and higher scale. And you're totally right about the long game you know, all the values created at the end.
Jaryd Krause (32:39)
Yeah, I love it. Thanks so much, everybody that is listening as well. Thank you so much for listening. If you know somebody that's going to own a content site already does do them a massive favor and share this podcast episode with them. There's so many gems from SEO, content creation and hiring that are so valuable for your buddies to know selfishly it helps myself grow Bob, Nick grow as well in front of more audience but the real value is you helping your friends out with a valuable piece of content.
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Jaryd Krause is a serial entrepreneur who helps people buy online businesses so they can spend more time doing what they love with who they love. He’s helped people buy and scale sites all the way up to 8 figures – from eCommerce to content websites. He spends his time surfing and traveling, and his biggest goals are around making a real tangible impact on people’s lives.
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