Ep 342: How Can Generative Engine Optimization (GEO) Get Your Business Seen In Far More Places with Dom Wells

What is GEO? Generative AI Engine Optimization and why do you need it in 2025 and beyond? Hi, I'm Jaryd Krause. I'm the host of the Buying Online Businesses podcast.

Today, I'm speaking with Dom Welch, who is the founder and CEO of Onfolio Holdings on the Inc. NASDAQ. They are publicly listed as ONSO, which is a public holding company of small profitable online businesses.

Dom's been in the space for a very long period of time. He's bought multiple businesses and has built out a holding company where they acquire great businesses. And in this episode, we talk about one of the digital marketing and SEO agencies that they acquired. And the reason they moved that SEO agency into a primarily and fully fledged GEO agency, generative AI engine optimization.

And then we talk, you we move into why AI search results are so important and how the quality those search results are for your business compared to maybe search engine results. We talk about multiple differences between GEO or artificial optimization compared to SEO.

We move into how chat GPT compare and LLMs compared to Google being Yahoo, DuckDuckGo rank and work compared to AIs and how they list information, why AI can extract far better and quality answers for you than larger search engines, know, with training and understanding who you are and all that sort of stuff.

And we move into talking about how you can actually use AI, CHPT, and other tools to rank or to audit your business, and then provide results and options, and answers on how you can rank in AI searches as well. We also talk about how authority building for your business is similar to link building, but also unfamiliar.

And then we talk about some of the results that pace generative, this company that Dom has worked on and built out has gotten results for some quite large brands from our results and how fast it is and easier it is to get.

AI chat results versus SEO results from larger search engines. We also talk about some of the products that they offer, A-Standardive, and how you can get a free audit. A link for that is in the show notes as well.

Enjoy the pod.

Tom, long time. Welcome back to the pod.

Yeah, thanks for having me. We were just chatting before about how long it's been, but yeah, it's good to be back.

Has been long. We're also chatting about what you've built with Onfolio. Guys will have links to that in the show notes as well. Dom's taken a path in with Onfolio, gone public, raised a bunch of money, and out of it.

Quite a great company. But we're going to be talking about something a little bit different today. We're going to be talking about GEO, right? Which is not SEO, it's generative AI experiential optimization to have businesses rank in GPTs, like ChatGPT and other places. How did you evolve into this?

Maybe talk about the company, the acquisition, and then the restructuring, the change into this, and why I think GEO is different from SEO I think it did largely evolve out of SEO. And so that's kind of how we got into it as well. So we acquired a company in January 2024.

Yeah. And we still own them. They're a great part of our portfolio company called Revenues N. And I think everybody's been kind of looking at ChatGPT over the last year or so, thinking, there anything I can do to try and rank in chat GPT?

And I think throughout the course of this interview, I might say GEO, might say AI visibility, I might say like AI SEO, they're all interchangeable, different people. Some people are saying AEO, some people are saying GEO, some people are saying GEO, like I don't really know.

We're still all working that out, aren't we? It's going to become the predominant keyword term.

Yeah.

I mean, Andreessen Horowitz has gone all in on GEO, and I'm like, okay, well, if the money guys are calling in GEO, then that will do for me. Also, when I say ChatGPT, I kind of mean all of them, all of the LLMs. So it could be perplexity, could be Claude, could be Copilot, for example.

And also, there is the Google AI overviews as well. So kind of use them all interchangeably. I would say I've seen different statistics, but I would say around 50 % of LLM traffic is ChatGPT. So whether I say ChatGPT or not, basically most of people's referral traffic is going to come from ChatGPT. So kind of just to get that out of the way.

So revenues started playing around with a geo, think about a year ago, and then they started working with some of their existing clients. So they have like B2B SaaS clients, and have some small to medium enterprise clients. And they were working with them.

And I think from January of this year, so we're recording this in July, so call it six months, seven months ago. They really started to like implement GEO as like a core strategy beyond just like, Hey, yeah, we think the things that we're doing for you will help you improve.

And so around, I think March or April of this year, I noticed more and more people were finding some of our businesses and saying, yeah, I found you in ChatGPT. And I noticed I was using ChatGPT to find people a lot more recently, and not recently, maybe a lot more frequently.

And I also noticed ChatGPT was showing articles that were less than a day old or less than a week old. I asked a question about something and it showed me a wall street journal article that was published, think three hours before. And I was like, is, is this wrong? Is the date on this wrong?

So I went to the Wall Street Journal was like, No, it literally was just published. I've had press releases that my company put out like an hour before I've asked a question about, like on Folio and it surfaced that press release. So I started realizing that there was a lot of potential here because, okay, like if we kind of back up a bit when chat tpt first came out, like it was only trained up until something like July 2021.

And people were catching it for getting information wrong. And it would say like, Hey, I haven't been trained on this. And then it started having kind of browse capabilities, but literally all it was doing was Googling the search tab. Like, you know, you would say What's the best SEO agency, would just go, let's see what the best SEO agency was.

And it would basically show you the top 10 of Bing. And then I think around mid-April, the 03 model rolled out of ChatGPT, which was a lot better at live searching and researching, and reasoning. And that's when I personally noticed like, okay, there's, this is a different field from SEO now because yeah, there's a ton of overlap, but I think, I think actually there should be like a dedicated agencies that focus on this. And so that's when we started speaking to like revenues end a bit more.

Like, can you tell us a bit more about the stuff you've been doing? And have you got any results? And they were like, yeah, we did this thing for our client, which is like a public company, SAS company. They, you know, people would have heard of them. And, I was like, wow, these results are pretty impressive.

And some of the results were like, yeah, you grew their ChatGPT traffic. Like ChatGPT's traffic is growing anyway. But some of it was like, no, you increase the number of rankings that they've got. You increase the actual quality of the traffic in terms of conversions and things like that. And you improved the sentiment. Because with Google and SEO, you really only control do you show up in a list of links?

But with GEO, you can, to some extent, control what the chat box and LLMs, everything I'm actually saying about you, or at least you can help influence that. We basically said, Okay, this is a big opportunity. Rather than just being an SEO agency trying to sell GEO, which is what the internet is flooded with right now.

We want to create a dedicated GEO agency that will probably become faster and better than any SEO agency because of just like what happens when you focus on a specific thing: you get better at it faster, and then because you get better at it, you get more work, and then you get even better at it.

That was the kind of inception. I mean, partly as a positioning player as well. Like if we're a dedicated GEO agency, we might be able to land a better clientele. And if we're an SEO agency, that's like, yeah, we can do GEO too. And there's a lot of like, there's a lot of hyperbole and a lot of gaslighting and a lot of just hype on the internet right now from some SEO agencies like going all in on GEO.

And then you've got a lot of other SEO agencies that are like, geo is not even a thing. It's just SEO. And we can probably talk about that, but then there are also a lot of people who are like, well, LLM traffic is only 1% of organic traffic anyway. So what's the point?

I think, yeah, there's, there's, there's a lot of conversation right now. I think we're probably still early to something that will be very big. And so that's why we've said, let's go all in on this, but yeah. So that's why we made pace generative basically, which is like, it's kind of spun out from revenues, revenues, and they still exist separately. They can do SEO services. Can do geo services, but pace is like a dedicated team. Yeah. So that's kind of the inception of all this.

Cool. Cool.

Grads, I agree, it's still pretty early, but I think the overall arching belief is that it's going to be here for a long time, and it's going to be a thing. Like everybody's using ChatGPT. Who doesn't know what ChatGPT is now? I've got so many questions just in between what you were just mentioning. The first one is only 1 % of search results is, you know, from ChatGPT.

What are the stats now? Like time of recording, what's the difference in search results from like tween, Bing, Yahoo, Google, DuckDuckGo and say ChatGBT and other AI LLMs? What's the share? Because it's slowly, I don't know if it's slowly grown, but yeah, is there misconceptions around this as well?

Yeah, it's exponential, but there's a, think people miss the point a little bit when they share these stats. I don't, yeah, I'll go into that in a sec, but it's growing exponentially. Think from January, 2025, to, uh, think May or June, 2025, was when I like, you know, the last bit of data I saw was published.

AI traffic had three X'd. So that's like 300% or 200% in five months or six months. And I think it's increasing. So it's not, think from July to December, 2025, it went three X, it's four X or five X. So people then say, well, let's zoom out a minute and see what that actually means.

And they're like, yeah, chat GPT traffic is still only 1 % of organic traffic. Maybe like it's growing quickly, but maybe that doesn't actually matter because in the scheme of things, it's still, it doesn't really matter if you drop a cup of water in the ocean or a bathtub in the ocean, it's still nothing.

Why I think people are missing the point there, though, is that, so how people come up with those stats is they'll look at Google Analytics and they'll be like, they'll look at maybe 500 different companies or 40 different companies, just depends on what their data set is.

And they'll say, yeah, across all these companies on average, ChatGPT referral traffic is 1 % of someone's overall organic traffic, which I think is useful data, but I also think there are a lot of people out there who maybe don't have much SEO traffic, and they're getting ChatGPT traffic every day.

Obviously I'm like living and breathing it. So I'm seeing it more, more than other people, but every day I'm hearing stories from people where they're like, yeah, I asked someone how they found me recently, and they said ChatGPT, and we've had new companies that we've launched, and people found us because of ChatGPT.

So maybe these are companies with no SEO presence. There's also the question of what it means as well. Somebody I follow on Twitter, I think, or X, you know, whatever, yesterday said a client found them on ChatGPT. And so it concluded that they must be experts if ChatGPT recommended them.

So I think Samra shared a similar research around the same time, as in the January to June data, the kind of volume data. And they said that they found LLM referral traffic to be four times more valuable than organic traffic because people are coming pre-warmed up. They're like better qualified.

They're assuming that if ChatGPT is recommending you, that you're better, but also, ChatGPT is generally recommending you because they think it's a better fit. So the key thing with Google is you know, let's say you search for something, and I'm trying to think of a good example, broad searches, like most people have very broad searches in Google. And then when they use ChatGPT, this is I use it as very targeted and specific search. Why would the result be better than, say, a broad search in Google, and save you time?

But even if you did a very specific search in Google, Google's just going to show you a list of 10 links that it thinks are the best articles for you. Whereas now, actually, Google AI overviews don't necessarily work that way, but how LLMs work and how AI overviews work is that they might, first of all, LLMs are better because they might make a recommendation for you after six or seven different questions. Whereas Google, even the AI overviews, they're still guessing what you want.

Whereas chat GBT, you can be like, no, no, no, that's not what I meant. Or you could be like, wait, how about this? Or what about that? And so plus chat GBT knows like so much about you if you have memory and stuff.

So if you say, for example, what's the best graphic design tool, it's probably more likely to recommend Canva to you because it might know, like, you have a small team, you know, you want something easy to use. You're not a designer yourself, whereas someone else who is a designer, an enterprise company, might recommend Adobe, some Photoshop, or some other thing.

And you might also not even be problem-aware. You might be like, Hey, I have this problem. I'm not sure. So sorry. You might not be solution aware. You might be like, Hey, I have this problem. I'm not really sure how to, what to call it or what causes it. And like after three or four back and forth, it recommends something. The other thing is this chat GPT is not.

Tasked with just giving a list of 10 articles. So, ChartGBT can recommend sentences or paragraphs from articles that are the most relevant, as it thinks this is the most relevant piece of information.

So, therefore, your article doesn't need to be like, I need to optimize this article perfectly in a way that it's going to beat the other nine articles or the other 500 articles that are ranking for this term. Instead, you just need to get chatty-bitty, see your website and understanding it and stuff.

So the way LLMs work now is they might, when they're doing research, they're going to do hundreds of searches. And Google does this as well with its AI overviews, but this is why I'm like, you know, they're separate, but they're also kind of the same. They're going to ask, like, okay, which article exactly matches what the sort of keyword is that the user searched for.

Okay, this one. And then which article has a piece of content on it, which I think matches what they're really looking for. Like, okay, this one. And then which article is the most authoritative? Okay, I think that's this one. Which article is from a website that consistently ranks for a ton of similar phrases?

So maybe, you know, they're the most comprehensive author on the topic. Like, okay, this one. Then they'll either show you kind of a combination of those articles to answer your question, or they'll ask you a question and they'll cite them as sources. Cause you know, quite often, like, a child's LGBT just is like, here's the answer and here's where I got it from.

Or they'll, you know, maybe, they'll show you the one that they think fits best rather than the one that ticks all the boxes. And so it really changes the, like, it's got a lot more inventory to play with. There's a lot more like, you know, I think 80% of ChatGPT sources are ranked page three or higher or lower, I guess, in Google. And that's because there's just way more articles.

Know, there's only page one and two, there's only over 20 articles. Page three onwards, there are hundreds and thousands of articles. And so it's got more information, but the point is it's not just relying on page one and page two. So kind of backing up a little bit.

So, where we started down this, like, yes, in the scheme of things, organic traffic is still massively larger than LLM traffic, but what LLM traffic does is it's just like opening a door for content that would otherwise not get any SEO traffic to suddenly be getting cited. And we're seeing that time and time again.

The other thing, the final thing, is that a lot of LLM traffic won't show up as organic traffic or as referral traffic. So, for example, somebody might hear about you because they might be like, Hey, I want to learn about buying online businesses. Maybe chat GPT recommends you as a resource.

And then they go and Google you, or ChatGPT says like, know, Jaryd Krauss said this thing about this thing. And like, it was really interesting. And then maybe the person Googles your name or something. So you might see an increase in branded searches. You might see an increase in direct traffic.

You might see an increase in sentiment that doesn't necessarily translate to traffic today. And so I think if, if the tracked data is 1%, I think the real data is probably the real impact is probably as high as three or 4%. And then the value of that traffic is four times as good. So now you're talking about maybe 20 to 25%.

This is obviously bromance here, like don't like, you know, then you think, okay, it's also growing very quickly. It's like, yeah, maybe 1 % is not really like, it's not, the headline is kind of like, don't panic, it's only 1%, but I think it's like, yeah, come on. I think it's a bit worse.

By the time, yeah, yeah, makes total sense. The time you like to chat, GVT knows you, it has your search history and your data, and all the questions. It's going to make far more precise recommendations from a wider source, which takes an easier payload than what Google has to do to search to get you whatever's in the top few searches.

And then, like you're saying, it's a more targeted referral that you can go away and Google or search on YouTube or Instagram and just double-check that that is the right source. And if not, then you're probably going to go back to ChatGPT to go, okay, I've checked out that Jaryd guy or this other guy's this.

They're good with these things and not good with those things. Want this sort of combination, and they can go back and search again. Right. You just get so refined to getting like precision.

Yeah, or I'll give you another example. Like I was having a conversation with chat. GPT, like, okay. How can I learn more about capital allocation? Like, can you give me some examples of other public companies that have done acquisitions, and maybe they've done more creative forms of capital allocation?

And I was like, I want to read some stuff. And so it found me so many interesting articles. Some of them were a few months old. Some of them were a few years old. Some of them were like LinkedIn posts and so on. And I read all of them, and I went back and Googled them and stuff.

I never would have found any of them if I had searched on Google. But then, also a few of these blogs I returned to over and over again, because I had so much content. It's like that kind of thing is just not going to show up in your organic traffic.

That was always true of organic. Like somebody might find a blog for the first time through Google, and then they'll come back to it time and time again. The point is, now you don't even need to rank in Google to get surfaced.

Like Chat2BT was showing me articles that were exactly what I wanted that didn't even, that didn't even rank anywhere in Google. Like, I think I found them on page three or page four. And so it was just like, why would you, why would you want to ignore that? Because there's only 1 % of organic traffic., It's like, that is amazing.

Yeah, I mean it's good fine news people that have been shut out.

And it's not just about Google and ranking in Google anymore. It's about making sure your business, in a global way, is sharing things that can be picked up via chat GBT. For instance, found a LinkedIn post might have been a day off or an Instagram post, or a YouTube video.

I've gotten results in chat GBT with just like this portion of the YouTube video that speaks exactly to the answer that I'm after. Know, mean, Google does that as well, but like maybe the video is not from YouTube. Maybe it's, maybe the video is from Instagram or X, Twitter, LinkedIn, or TikTok.

With that said, the important question I want to ask is what, you know, what are some of the things, and you mentioned it briefly before, that like, you don't need to have an article that takes all the SEO boxes to get ranked in chat.gbt. And then there's also other things that you could be doing with all your content that is distributed from different channels to be able to have chat.gbt pick that up.

What are some of the things that businesses should be thinking about? I mean, you guys go away and audit a business, and then you can have suggestions to make, and then people can rapidly do it or build on their own or whatnot. But yeah, where do you start with that somebody's thinking about, okay, cool, get it. We need to be getting better traffic, even if it's not as much traffic, but better quality traffic from AI.

Yeah, I think there's a few things I would audit. Mean, the first is I would audit my own brand. Like, I would be like, what are LLMs saying about me? Because, to some extent, that's limited because if nobody's asking LLMs about you in the first place, then like, doesn't matter what they're saying, but that's also not strictly true because it'll help you understand why LLMs aren't talking about you in other terms.

Or so, for example, like if you're not sure, let's say you're like a local plumbing company and you ask Chachi PT, Hey, pick me some good plumbing companies in this area. And if Chachi PT doesn't surface you, you could, first of all, you can just say, Why didn't you recommend this company?

And, it's actually pretty good at telling you the answer, but also if you just say to Chachi PT, Hey, what do you think about this company? And you can say it's your company or not. doesn't it doesn't really matter. If you use Chachi PT a lot, you will probably already know it's your company.

But you can start to look for things where maybe it's inconsistent or it doesn't have a good understanding. So, for example, Pace Generative is on our new geo agency. And if I ask ChatGPT about it, it'll say it's a new agency.

It's owned by a public company. And so it's got this trust and transparency, and it's got one or two public case studies out there, but it's quite new. Then, so if you say to it, who is a bet, who, who is a good geo agency?

It might recommend us because we do actually rank in some of the listicles and stuff. So that's kind of standard SEO stuff, but also if it's recommending other companies, we can start to think, okay, yeah, the reason it's recommending them is because they've been around longer.

So you can start to piece together from just auditing your own brand and your competitors, why they're being picked. The other thing you can try and do is just start reverse engineering. Like what is working. So this is kind of a similar SEO tactic. So you might say, like the best plumbing company in Sydney, for example.

And, you can see where Chachi Petit is getting its recommendations from. So it might be getting it from like Google maps reviews, or it might be getting it from, like Yelp, or it might be getting it from like, you know, whatever the local directories are. And so you might say, okay, I need to go and improve my listings there. But there are also things you can do where.

The reason ChatGPT relies on third party reviews is because it doesn't necessarily have enough reasons to just recommend you directly. And so some of things you can do with your own webpage to help it is really make it clear on your webpage, like almost every article that you have or every page, like what is this article about?

Just spell it out. Like, who is this for? Who is our service for? What are the five different use cases or buying personas, and are they very fact-based and very specific? And so with SEO, you might be able to get away with writing more like fluffy language, I guess. So you could say, like, it's well known that people prefer the summer, for example, Google's not going to care about that type of sentence, whatever.

Whereas LLMs would, you'd want to say, like, based on this research, seven out of 10 people prefer the summer, and you like to list the actual research. What I would do on my own brand, then, is I would basically say, okay, what facts do I have about my company that I can share?

I'd even have a fax page like company.com slash fax. Then, kind of like an FAQ page, but it's more like, it's like, you're not relying on hypothetical questions or just sharing facts. Like this is what we do. This is when we were founded. It's like, this is how much we cost.

This is who we serve, and LLMs will find that. And then they'll like kind of take the knowledge on board. And that alone can make a difference where somebody might be asking about your company and they are the LLM already know what this kind of searchers profile is, or the searcher might even say, Hey, like I'm a, you know, I'm a CFO and I'm looking for this software.

And then the LLM is like, who do I know that offers that? And if you're one of the only people out there with a fax page that looks like specifically calling that out, you sound a better chance of getting recommended. Then the other thing really is making sure you do that, but like consistently across the web.

So across all your social media pages, you kind of have that same consistent messaging. Like with SEO, it doesn't really matter what your YouTube page or what your LinkedIn page says, or your company's about page. They can be inconsistent or whatever, but with GEO, you really need like consistent messaging.

Then I would look at what third party reviews are saying or third-party listings like directories and stuff, and maybe even read it if it's relevant to your niche, and just try to make sure that there's like consistent messaging across the board.

And that alone can make a big difference, especially with making sure that the sentiment is right and that like ChargBt is recommending you to the right people in terms of just improving your overall visibility. That's going to help as well. There's probably a bunch of other tactics I can go into, but I don't want to start waffling.

So there's a lot there, brand consistency across multiple platforms. But it's basically like you said, you can go and audit your business using ChatGPT to work out why you're not even showing up as a result in ChatGPT compared to other competitors, and what you could do to show up in ChatGPT with consistency.

Yeah. You have to just guess the last thing that you have to read between the lines a little bit. Like if you say to chat GPT, what can I do to show up more? Chat GPT really wants to please you.

So it'll just give you a list of things to do, and you might do them, and you might show up more, or you might not, because ChatGPT could have just bullshitted. Right. And so you have to think, okay, if this is what it's recommending or this is what it thinks about my brand, what can I do to change that? But it's not like.

You can't just be like, okay, well, you said do these things. Why am I not ranked?

This is the dangerous thing about ChatGPT: it can give you an answer that sounds good, but might not actually net you the results. For example, just people Googling health things, is it good to eat this? Is it not good to eat this? And it can come with mixed results that you need to think about for yourself.

If I do those, that list of tasks for my business, is it going to attract the type of traffic and clients that I actually want, or is it not really that beneficial? And if it's not that beneficial, can I ask a better question that can get me something that's a strategy that's a little bit more tailored to saying, these three results of things that you told me to do will get me exposure, but maybe not necessarily for who my target market is.

Can you give me some better examples if I want to target this type of person who wants to achieve this type of result? What would you do then? And then you can just double down and make it better.

Yeah, I think I also try to be like, where's the evidence of this? If like I'm doing an audit. So I was doing an audit for a client, for example, that, um, and I often use Gemini for audits as well. Gemini is really good at research, but it's so both, like it just, you're like, Hey, um, tell me about this brand.

It creates like a, I, I once asked it to summarize. There was like a medic, no, not a medical, there was like a research report published by MIT, think, and it was like 20 pages long, and I put it into Gemini and said, Can you summarize this? And Gemini produced a 50 page summary.

Like, I'm not sure what happened here. So when you ask Gemini to do an audit, it'll be like, you know, go make a coffee. I'll come back in 10 minutes, but it is really good at research. So it's correct, but you're just like, this is going to take me forever. Whereas ChatGPT might hallucinate more, but it will also give you a much better summary.

And other people use Claude, whatever. I just use the tools I'm more familiar with. And so I was auditing this client, and they said, The sentiment about this client can be bad, and here are the five or six different examples of why it's bad, and here's what we recommend doing to counter it.

And you can click on it, it showed its workings in the margins. It showed the examples of the negative reviews and that they are being surfaced in Google or ChatGPT, or whatever, for the terms that are important to the client. And it's recommending how you can mitigate this, and you can see, like, that's true. Okay. This is really good. I'm going to write this down.

I'm going to make these notes and I'm going to come up with a strategy. But sometimes it might say, well, there are really bad negative reviews about this. And you're like, where? Or it's like putting too much stock in one random crappy Reddit comment that came across that actually isn't showing up for anything.

And so you have to, or it might say, yeah, you should publish some verified research data, and that will get you ranking more. And you're like, but none of the people that you are currently surfacing have that. So are you saying if I'm the only one that has it, you'll start surfacing me, or is it actually something else more important for getting surfaced?

So that's what I mean. You kind of have to be like, well, these suggestions are good and I can actually see why you're making them. I believe, yeah, like that's a really good idea, but yeah, it's kind of like, you kind of have to verify or try to double-check everything. And that's true of everything using Adelep.

It was like you say, like you're asking it health advice or like, you know, can I feed chocolate to my dog or whatever? And chatty pitty is like, yeah, totally. You know, have a good time. Yeah. And you're wondering why your dog's puking.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's the scary thing about ChatGPT and maybe us becoming dumbed down by believing in everything it says. Tell me about some of the results you've gotten for some of the people you work with.

Yeah, because people were getting to the tail end of this pod and thinking, all right, well, this is amazing. I can go do some of this work myself. But what about like, what have you guys done? How could you possibly help us?

Yeah. And I think that's the, that's the key, right? Because it's still quite early for a lot of people that like, sounds good, but you know, should I pay attention to it or not? And how can it work? I think you can see results within days.

Like, so for example, when we first launched Pace Generative, we didn't show up for any geo related terms, but within a week I got us, think perplexity was recommending us. If you said the best geo agency or the best AISEO agency. Like, so what I did was I just got us mentioned by a few companies that were ranking for those terms. So very similar to SEO, but we weren't ranking in Google, but we were still being recommended.

Can kind of, for example, let's say, let's say you type in best GEO agency into Google, and this is before like AI overviews exist or something. You're just going to see 10 articles link building, but then you have to click through each article to see the recommendations, and you might be recommended number seven on article three or something.

But perplexity and chat GBT were recommending us and we were, and we were mentioned like number three in the third article, but they were recommending us like position three in the entire thing, because like we were recommended with specific texts and stuff. It'ss similar, but different.

And the other things we've done are we've done a lot on Reddit where we've either created comments on existing subreddits that are already being indexed, or we've created new posts within existing subreddits or we've commented on, yeah, or we've created new actual subreddits themselves and then posted inside those.

And that's driven, I think, a three times increase in Reddit traffic for one of our clients, also ChatGPT traffic off the back of that Reddit post, but also the higher conversions as well. Cause a lot of people who search Reddit they're looking for recommendations, not just like early-stage research.

And so that Reddit is tricky. Like you can't always get it right, but when it works, like it works really well. We've also increased the number of AI overviews that clients rank for. Maybe, like let's say it's kind of like featured snippets back in the day, you might be like, yeah, we are in three featured snippets and we did some work and now we own 10. So it's the same thing, but with AI overviews instead.

So we've done it for a couple of clients, and we've done it for ourselves. And it's still like everything else is still work in progress. Like, but I think what's exciting is you can get results within days or weeks rather than months or never with us. Four years. I would, I would say you don't necessarily want to.

Yeah, months, years or never.

Stop doing SEO and just go in on this. Think they can work together and they can work separately, but it's not like it doesn't have to be either.

Yeah, I can see how it definitely works together and then also separately. Congrats on the results that you've gotten. It's quite cool. I'm sure there's just so much more in there on ways that you can help companies rank in ChatGPT and other LLMs and AI. But you've been generous enough to bring me on and give me a referral link for Pace. And you're able to help people with an order, is that right? How does that work?

Yeah, I mean, we have a paid audit, which is a lot more in depth. And we also, I've started offering free audits for people just to be like, Hey, I'll give you a quick audit of your company and give you some point you guys in the right direction.

And like, if you want to work with us to implement some of this awesome, like we can do that. iIfwant to go off and try and figure it out by yourself, like awesome as well. Well, yeah, obviously more awesome if you work with us, but yeah, the idea is like, we just want to show people these are some of the things that exist out there.

And we also like have some ala cart services we've launched since we, since you and I spoke as well, where it's like, if people say, yeah, I want to buy more branded mentions or I want to buy some like Reddit posts and mentions about my company, because I can see that that would boost my chat, GPT traffic. Like we have those offices as well.

Really, the best way for anyone to start is with an audit, whether free or paid, just because then, you know, at least you get an idea of whether you're showing up and what the other lamps are saying about you and what the obvious mistakes are and quick wins and so on.

Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for offering that free audit. What I'll do, guys, is I'll put a link to that. So you can either click on that free audit link in the show notes, or you can, once you see that you'll see the URL and you can just go to maybe paid audit if you'd like. I definitely would say that ChatGPT does recommend Reddit.

Reddit is a great source. When using ChatGPT, I've found that Reddit is such a great source, and having it makes sense to have brand recommendations there and on other authoritative sites, right?

Yeah, totally. Mean, I do think it depends on your specific industry and actually on the funnel stage. So again, there's like a lot of content being put out right now. People say Reddit isn't ChatGPT's biggest source; actually, Wikipedia is.

So now everyone's like, we better go create a Wikipedia page. But if you're talking about like middle of funnel content or bottom of funnel content, so like the actual traffic you want.

Yeah, Reddit is much more important than Wikipedia, which is much more surface-level. People look at the entire internet, and they're like, Wikipedia gets mentioned more than Reddit. Everyone runs off to build a Wikipedia page. But it's like, yeah, if you think about how the entire internet works and the average thing that someone searches ChatGPT for, yeah, of course, Wikipedia is going to show up more because people ask all sorts of rubbish to ChatGPT.

But like, if you think about like what you were saying earlier about getting recommended for what actually matters to your brand, then yeah, you should pay attention to Reddit or just see what else is showing up. There might be a random forum that's showing up in something that's like a more valued source for your particular niche in the industry, which would be worth paying for a recommendation.

Yeah, it's only going to evolve, and I'm excited to see where it goes. And I think we should get you back in, you know, maybe this time next year and just chat about, you know, how it has evolved and the results that have come from the work that you've done. If you'd be open to it.

Yeah, yeah, sounds good. It's always good to come back on and I do think there'll be, we can come back and say everything that I got wrong, everything that's changed, everything that I was wrong about if we can avoid those mistakes.

Yeah, exactly. I'm sure people go back to your, they find your podcast and they go back and they binge on stuff from four or five years ago. So it's important to have like an update to show what's still relevant and what is most people listen to the podcasts, like listen to maybe 50, anywhere from 20 to 50 podcasts or more before they decided to start working with me. And it's, it's good. That just helps with the trust, and yeah, binge, binge-watching content and seeing these days.

Yeah, I mean, it is. When I find a good podcast, I'm like, wow, that was really good. What else have they got? And it's disappointing if they don't like it, you look through Spotify and you don't see anything good. But if you see tons of things like, yeah, you spend an hour with that person.

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming on, Dom. Really appreciate you and your time. Guys, there'll be links to Onfolio Co. in the show, nose, and free order as well.

Yeah, thanks again, Dom.

Yeah, it's been good. Thanks for having me.